[For those of you interested in Christian theology, particularly the struggle over theological authority, then this post may interest you. It is a long post, and what looks like the end of the essay might not be the end at all. Also, the comments that follow are really quite interesting. For everyone else, you may skip over to something less overtly religious.]
Recently I have spent some time perusing the Christian theology blog, Pyromaniacs. I fell upon it after following the link found at the website of one of Contratimes' frequent visitors. It is a feisty and well-written blog, thoroughly theological.
Last week I read at Pyromaniacs an essay called, God, Evil and The Cross. I read it in earnest, noting that it addressed similar issues to what I discussed in my recent series, The Problem Of Knowing Good and Evil. I commented on the essay, which was written by Mr. Dan Phillips, but as far as I can tell, Mr. Phillips never replied. However, another Pyromaniacs writer did respond (Pyromaniacs is team-written), a Mr. James Spurgeon. In his response to my comments, he asked me this:
What I detect is that your view of God is not entirely informed by Scripture. Am I wrong?
There is nothing threatening or mean in Mr. Spurgeon's question; in fact, there was even something light-hearted about it. So I offered him this reply (directed to a few others, as well):
My dear friends in Christ,
In response to brother Spurgeon's observations re: my last comment, I will try to be terse in this reply. But I will only try.
Let me share my story. I graduated with a double major in Philosophy and Biblical Studies/Theology from a well-known evangelical college. I minored (essentially) in history. Subsequently I began the application process to several seminaries (Harvard, Princeton, Yale) but never finished; I visited Oxford (I thought I'd be an evangelical Episcopal priest, now a nearly extinct species. Yikes!) to look at a program there; I was finally accepted at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, but deferred enrollment. After 20 years, I remain deferred.
You see, something happened along the way. One of my professors, a very well-known evangelical, converted to Catholicism. And then I heard a question while contemplating the news of that conversion during my prayers: Did Jesus Christ Himself tell you that you must not be a Roman Catholic? I have been trying to answer that question since 1984.
And how I've answered the question, in part, and how I am "informed" by Scripture (Mr. Spurgeon's question), begins this way: I do not believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead because I read it in the Bible.
Now, I hope this is an utterly plain proclamation here. Moreover, I hope the same is true for everyone reading this. We do not believe in Jesus' resurrection because we have read about it in a book, irrespective of how perfect the book might be. Do we?
Let us stipulate without wavering that the Bible is not only inerrant and infallible in matters of faith, but it is also the sole arbiter, the sole guide, of our glorious Faith. The problem with this assertion, however, if there is a problem, is to be found in the word "sole."
You see, if the Bible is the sole guide to faith, then it would seem that the only place for news about Jesus' all-important resurrection is within the Bible itself; that the sole arbiter of this momentous event is Scripture. But to make this assertion is to create a singular problem. For if the Bible is the sole arbiter, and the sole guide, to crucial matters of faith, then we are stuck with a story something like this: Sts. John, Peter and Matthew, when they first saw the empty tomb and the Risen Lord, chose not to believe the testimony of their senses until they first ran back to their desks, wrote down their testimony and then, reading their own words said, "Ah! Now I can believe that He is risen, indeed." What I am saying is that Jesus rose from the dead irrespective of and even independent of the Scriptures, and the disciples did not defer to a sole written arbiter to assure them, infallibly and inerrantly, of what they were witnesses to. And generations of Christians after them followed the exact same example without recourse to Scripture: The Church testifies to His Kingdom, the Church bears witness to His gospel, the Church declares what is authentic and what is not. Why? Because the Church is witness. And that witness includes me. I, too, have known the Risen Lord. I, too, have heard His voice, even in the "deep heart's core."
So what I am getting at is that the Church precedes the Scripture and not the other way around. Of course, I know you have heard this sort of debate before. But it is worth debating over and over again. When St. Paul tells the believers at Thessalonika to "Test everything," he is not telling them, as several evangelical pastors I've known have taught, to "test everything" against Scripture, because there was no Scripture† for the early church to use to conduct such tests. The Church tested everything against the repository of truth which was and is the Church itself.
And while I am not a big "natural revelation" guy, I am quite convinced that natural revelation is rather thorough: St. Paul tells us that the visible world reveals not only the invisible characteristics of God, it reveals sin and fallenness, and that sinners deserve death.
What I am ultimately saying is that Christians have more than just Scripture to guide them. Yes, they do have nature, but they also have the whole corpus of truth shaped within the Body of Christ: literature, prayers, lessons, carols, sacraments, encyclicals, rebukes, apologies, catechisms, and so on. After all, if Scripture is the sole guide for the Church in all matters of faith, where does Scripture tell us that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John belong in Scripture? Surely the matter of what is canonical and what is not is a critical matter of faith; how then is the Bible silent about it if it is indeed the sole arbiter of faith? Or should we not find solace in the rather glorious announcement found in the repository which is OUR Church: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John belong in the Canon not only because they were witnesses, but because we KNOW them to be right, good, and pure (of course, the scary thing here for Protestants is that this sort of thing shifts authority from God-inspired written words to a dynamic, breathing, ancient and God-inspired Church).
This in no way is a suggestion that Scripture is errant. This is just a suggestion that the Church is not peripheral to biblical authority. It is central to it; biblical authority is contingent upon the direct authority as witness inherent in the Church. When Jesus says that His sheep will know His voice, He is declaring that the Church has the authority to recognize whether He is present or not.
I hope this explains the problem I have experienced in my life as a follower of our glorious Lord and Savior.
Bill Gnade
†It is important to note that there was probably not one single first generation believer that saw, read or held all of the New Testament Canon. It is also important to note that even if Paul meant that believers were to test everything against the OT Canon, it was not like Torah scrolls were just lying around on people's nightstands (with gilt edges and leather covers). In fact, many if not most synagogues did not have a complete Hebrew Canon. Besides, Paul's exhortation was to Thessalonian Gentiles: it's not like they were carrying miniature Torahs around for nightly "Sword Drills," nor is it likely that they had much access to the ark in the nearby temple. Perhaps a few rich Gentiles had a few Torah scrolls, but that is being optimistic. The best thing we can say here is that when Paul meant "Test everything," he meant a lot more than just using Scripture to "test." Grace.
I thought that might be the last of it, but I was wrong.
Today, while visiting Pyromaniacs, I found a new essay by Mr. Phillips called "How we 'do' Christianity, and the reverse." I urge Contratimes readers (if interested) to read Mr. Phillips' essay. It is rather telling. You see, apparently my comments --
I do not believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead because I read it in the Bible
Now, I hope this is an utterly plain proclamation here. Moreover, I hope the same is true for everyone reading this. We do not believe in Jesus' resurrection because we have read about it in a book, irrespective of how perfect the book might be. Do we?
-- perturbed Mr. Phillips. Now, let it be noted that Mr. Phillips does not name me, though a quick perusal of the comments offered about his last essay would reveal my name rather plainly. But what I want you all to see is how Mr. Phillips represents my position, and how he characterizes me. It is stunning. I urge you. Please read his essay and then come back here. My reply, which I posted at Pyromaniacs, follows.
Here is my reply:
Dear Mr. Phillips,
Alas, I am late to a party built around (sort of) my own words.
I can't tell you how disappointed I am that you should essentially craft a straw man out of what I said. Apparently it does not bother you to ignore the totality of my point; nor does it bother you to suggest, shamelessly, that I may be something of a saint doing theology badly. My devotion is utterly objective, and it is in this objective fact: That Jesus Christ is Lord, risen from the dead, irrespective of the fact that such news is also written in the Scriptures. I have not besmirched the Scriptures here; I have honored the witness of the Apostles -- the testimony of the Church as Witness -- which preceded scripture by decades. The people of the early church were converted without recourse to a single New Testament verse; they were converted by the power of objective facts reported by objective witnesses who were not first writing things down. That this goes to the heart of "Sola Scriptura" is evident, utterly and completely. Scripture alone? Impossible.
You throw down a gauntlet: Can anyone say anything about Christ without recourse to Scripture or doctrine? Perhaps I can: perhaps I can cite Josephus? But you leave yourself a wondrous out by separating "doctrine" from "the Bible," and, in so doing, leave the door wide open for me to solidify my point. Doctrine is something that the Church systematizes and teaches; and, while our very own Bible tells us that Jesus did and said far more things than all the books of the world could contain, we know THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH WAS INITIALLY FORMED WITHOUT RECOURSE TO A NEW TESTAMENT. And what was that doctrine? It was: He has risen, just as He said He would, and thus He is truly our Lord. Plus, we know that doctrine is those truths culled from Scripture. Doctrine is not the Scriptures themselves. Otherwise, "doctrine" and "the Scriptures" would be identical.
What of the Bible, really? Are you saying that truth about God is only contained in the Bible? Nonsense. Even the Bible PROVES that to be false. Doubt me?
Read this from Acts 17:24ff:
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
What do we find here: we find the very canonization of pagan poetry, that in pagan poets we find God's Word, truth about the God of the Universe, the Father of our Savior. Who were those poets? They were probably Epimenides, Aratus, and possibly the Stoic Cleanthes. Plus, it seems John was comfortable finding truth in Stoic thought in the preamble to his gospel. Of course, he is entitled to so redact, because his authority as a witness qualifies him to find truth in Stoic philosophy, and to show where that truth falls short or is augmented.
Would it be wrong to say this: That the Bible is not the Word of God; it is the Word of The Church? Is not Jesus the Word of God? What of these conundrums:
When King David writes in Psalm 119:11 that,
I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you…
David is not saying that those very sentences are the words he hides in his heart, is he? And when he says in Ps. 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet…", David is not talking about the word he just wrote in verse 105, right? In fact, David is referring to some other word, right, something other than the word he is writing? Otherwise he is storing in his heart his own words.
Similarly, when the writer of Hebrews 4:12 describes the word of God this way --
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart…
-- the writer is not referring to that sentence, is he? How does that sentence divide "the soul and spirit, joints and marrow"? How does that sentence judge the "thoughts and attitudes of the heart"? It doesn't do any of those things, and is thus referring to something other than itself, namely the Word of God of which the word of the Church proclaims.
Lastly, if Luther, who abhorred vast chunks of the New Testament, "killed it", as you say, why would Clark and Henry have to kill it too?
I think that you should be more careful attacking a brother's theology as you have mine. Reducing me to a person who "feels" and "thinks" in some sort of subjectivist's bathtub is one of the worst things you could have intimated about me. That you were kind enough to keep my name out of it -- which is good since you've built your case around a fragment of what I said -- gives me no small comfort. This is no game; and it is not about winning some sort of on-line honors. This is about the Gospel, where it is, what it sounds like, and who is proclaiming it.
And as I've said elsewhere, and I'll say it again, "We are not known as Christians by our orthodoxy, but by our love. Orthodoxy without love is dead. In fact, orthodoxy without love is not orthodoxy."
You may have been orthodox in dealing with my heresy, but it was not loving, not one whit. You may disagree. But at least know this: I will die for Christ, His Church, His Word, and His Creed. That may be a lot of subjectivism to you, but I'll live with that.
Peace and mirth, always, to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Bill Gnade
Contratimes
Now, I share this not to cast aspersions at anyone. I share this here because I want to reiterate what it is I am doing: I am trying to model grace in all I do. I fail every instant, but I wish I did not. But what I will not do is permit myself to misrepresent someone's argument and then stand on high, denouncing its deficiencies. Straw men are easy to blow down. What is not easy is to address the heart of an interlocutor's argument. It is easy to dismiss from a position of presumed superiority; it is hard to debate from a position of humility. And yet humility is at the heart of a good debate, for only the humble hear what the other is saying, and only the humble actually want to learn.
What I have written above, about the Bible, King David, and the New Testament, may be novel ideas for some of you. I have written such things elsewhere, in a manuscript I've been working on regarding difficult matters threatening the Church. I apologize if they seem heretical. My intent is to be orthodox, of course, but sometimes we have to go through weird stuff to get to the normal vistas we enjoy. There are distortions around, and I am trying to bring clarity to what has been bent out of shape.
Peace.
©Bill Gnade 2006/Contratimes - All Rights Reserved.
21 comments:
Ah, so I finally got to see the context of what Dan Phillips was talking about.
I asked him to cite the source, to which he declined because he thought my request an "invitation to go off-topic."
I have benefitted from this post on a couple of levels. The content of your original statement challenges a rigid understanding of the authority of Scripture. The process of the debate, which I have always suspected as the real telltale, is also challenging. I appreciated these words:
"And yet humility is at the heart of a good debate, for only the humble hear what the other is saying, and only the humble actually want to learn."
So true!
David,
Thank you for your visit. Please come again and let us know more about you and what you are thinking.
Jason,
It is nice to hear from you again. Your offerings are always appreciated. Thanks.
Humility is a difficult path to find, let alone follow. I spend most of my time searching for the way, unsure if I can even find it.
Peace to you both,
BG
Bill said: "I thought that might be the last of it, but I was wrong."
Heh, did you really think that? :-)
I learned or had confirmed several things from reading the comments to DJP's post:
1) He's much more interested in playing to an audience than engaging in meaningful debate--as is most of the blogosphere
2) It's ok for him to use 1000+ words but not you
3) The easiest way to deal with an interlocutor is a flippant response
4) Expecting meaningful theological discussion on most evangelical Protestant blogs is somewhat analogous to expecting meaningful political discussion at the Daily Kos
5) He thinks squash is "yucky"--and on this point we agree.
Careful Bill, remember the words of Newman:"To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant."
Dear Mike,
You make me doubt myself. I think I thought it would be the end of it, since no one seemed to be interested, at all, in what I had been saying. James Spurgeon did at least compliment me, which he need not have done but for which I am nonetheless grateful. But there was no real interest in confronting me, so I thought I was just tossing dice onto a vibrating sander (I have no idea what that means).
As for the Daily Kos, you are right. But there is one amazing distinction which puts the Daily Kos in a very good light: at least the Daily Kos acknowledges you; at least it treats you like a human being to be loathed. But ignoring your guests' very existence, or ignoring the comments offered -- in reply to one's own invitation as host -- is something altogether different and really quite sad. And this in the name of Christ.
As for the "1000+ words", I have no problem with a person thinking my comments are too long. OK. Granted. But then to respond to -- and apparently accept -- the comments of other long-winded visitors is a brute's hospitality, if you ask me.
And yes to your observation about flippancy. To be glib is a sign of power, of control. But to be flippant is the disposition of presumed inerrancy. (See? I just did it.)
I don't know -- I like squash, particularly butternut. Pumpkin is good, too, I think.
Peace to you.
BG
Bill: Your points are certainly valid, although I don't really know how to integrate them with DJP's at Pyromanics, which are also valid up to a point.
What became clear from reading DJP's post and responses to comments is that he is arrogant and abusive. I've found it best to avoid folks like that. Scripture affirms that assessment, by the way (Titus 3:9&10, for example).
Peace.
Milton, my dear friend!
I am so glad that you weighed in on this. Your opinion is important to me. If you have any further advice, either about the theology or the dialogue (well, the lack thereof), please email me. I'd appreciate it. (I extend that offer to everyone else, too.)
Peace,
BG
Contratimes, thanks for stopping by my blog and chipping in. I am not sure that I completely understand where you are coming from on the idea of the Church as authority vs. the Bible as authority, but I am interested. Anyway, I would just like to say thank you for your gentleness and kindness represented on my blog. It is refreshing to hear someone maintain passion and still do so in humility. This is a hard balance to strike:) You are welcome to stop by anytime!
BG -
A thoughtful post, indeed! I think we will always struggle with the tension inherent in speaking the Truth in love, for some will be offended no matter the gentleness and love of speech. And some will go away sorrowing.
I know I constantly fail to speak well and gently.
In reference to your post wherein you say:
We do not believe in Jesus' resurrection because we have read about it in a book
I appreciate your point and approach . . . perhaps it was unintentionally provocative (it doesn't provoke me, however), but it states only that which is consistent with the apostolic witness, for as St. Paul notes, the Corinthian Church was 'manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart.' 2 Cor 3:3. If the ekklesia can be living 'epistles' of Christ, then she can reveal Christ, through the Spirit as much as any written epistle. Yet if she does, she is not inconsistent with the written apostolic witness, but in concert with it.
As I read your statement, revelation and understanding of Christ comes by the Spirit, and it is by the Spirit that we come to believe words written, or spoken, about our Lord.
I think perhaps there is also a Eucharistic aspect to this, for St. Paul specifically teaches that 'as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.' 1 Cor 11:26. The word for 'proclaim' is elsewhere used in Act in reference to preaching the Gospel. So . . . strangely enough this strange ritual is preaching or proclaiming the Word, and not in ink. I like to think of that proclaiming as coming forth both from the 'drama' of the liturgy, but also from the work of the writing of the 'epistle' of Christ upon our fleshy heart-tablets by the Spirit in the Eucharist, becoming one Church (see 1 Cor Ch. 12-14), one flesh with Him who fills all in all, and entering "the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh" (Heb. 10:19 &ff).
But that requires a particular Eucharistic theology that is shared by the older Churches (e.g., RCC, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox) but rejected by some 'newer' Christian bodies. :)
Anyway, thank you for your kind and gentle thoughts and your care in writing.
Pax
Bill,
Some who share my view do and say things that are indefenisible. Thanks for keeping an open mind about the rest of us. :o)
...it was not like Torah scrolls were just lying around on people's nightstands (with gilt edges and leather covers). In fact, many if not most synagogues did not have a complete Hebrew Canon.
Most Jewish boys had a great deal of the OT memorized by age 12, most girls had several books comitted to memory by then to. Boys who went on to study under a Smikah rabbi went on to memorize most the OT. Paul, Apollos, Peter, the Bereans, John each had a tremendous amount of Scripture under their belt and, of course, those who walked with Christ well knew his sermons built upon OT law.
To say that the church preceded Scripture is a difficult one for me go along with due to this and the fact that the apostles spent a great deal of time proving and revealing Christ by OT Scripture. That is really what all of us on the Protestant side are interested in (okay, what we should be interested in) when it comes to Scripture. Think of it as a chain of command concerning the truth, not as the sum total of all possible truth or all known truth.
Brad
Dear Brad and Raborn,
Thank you both for your fine responses.
Brad, you are right on all counts. But we depart from each other here: My comments re: Torah scrolls were really confined to Paul's words in Thessalonians; and since Paul is the "missionary to the Gentiles" and the Thessalonian Church was probably filled to the rafters with non-Jewish Christians, it seems safe to say Paul was not suggesting that these followers "Test everything" against the OT. As Gentiles this would be difficult for them; and few, if any, would have such scriptures memorized. And as for most Jewish boys having a lot of Scripture memorized, I recall learning that only the richest synagogues had most of the Torah scrolls available; the rest of the synagogues had but one or two, perhaps just of Isaiah or a minor prophet.
Am I right about that? I defer to you. But again, my point is rather simple, even if wrong: the Church precedes NT Scripture, and not the other way around; and it is/was the Church that determined what the criteria were for what constituted canonical texts. Scripture does not give us those criteria; it does not tell us which books are authoritative and which ones are not. I believe Hilarius' comments above really help clarify what I am getting at.
Raborn (and Brad),
My biggest question in all of this is: if we accept Sola Scriptura, does it not then follow that the first step in a person's salvation MUST BE the acceptance of Sola Scriptura? If Scripture is the only place we meet Christ, then is not the first step in salvation -- the first precept of the gospel -- to first convince a convert that the Bible is true? If so, where in the Scriptures does it tell us this? And is this not a different way of salvation for some followers of Christ over others? I mean, surely Jesus was not preaching in Palestine a first article of faith, namely that some written words were true; He was the truth, and that was the starting point.
Maybe there is another way of getting at this. We know that Paul wrote about women worshipping while wearing head-coverings, and that they should be silent in church. Let us assume that we do not expect women today to wear head coverings because we recognize that some things in Scripture are culturally relative. But if we accept this, and we also accept that the Bible is the SOLE guide to Christian living, then where in the Bible do we find any guidance for divining what is culturally relative and what is not? What verse can we cite? Are some words of God only relevant to the Apostolic age and, if so, which ones and how do we know which ones? Does the Bible tell us, or does something else help us here -- perhaps the teaching witness which is the Church?
And if the Bible is the word of God, cover to cover, then why do we not memorize such verses as "When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments"?(I Timothy 4:13) What is the word of God in 2 Timothy 4:20:
"Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus"?
What do I do with "Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. 15You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message"? or "Do your best to get here before winter"?
I am not attacking the Scriptures' errancy or infallibility. I am saying that we do not live in a world where we even practice Sola Scriptura; it's simply not possible.
Of course, I may have made a few mistakes here. That is typical, even likely. I am tired; it's late.
Blessings to you both,
BG
and the Thessalonian Church was probably filled to the rafters with non-Jewish Christians, it seems safe to say Paul was not suggesting that these followers "Test everything" against the OT.
This is true, Bill, but those who taught were instructed according to Scripture and they instructed others according to Scripture. Christ was the revealed Word made flesh after all (John 1:3,14)
It's not that we Protestants limit ourselves to say that all truth is limited to that which can be solely wrought out of Scripture (though this is not to say that Scripture does not bring forth mysteries and unrevealed truth) but this is to say that all truth as it pertains to God must be in agreement with Scripture which proceeded forth from the mouth of God no less. If a matter of question arises then we take the matter to the Scriptures just as the Bereans.
Jew or Gentile, though they are ignorant when they come to God and are ignorant in many ways long thereafter, if what they are taught is right and true, then it must agree with Scripture. If a revelation is proclaimed outside it, then it needs to be tested against it - that's the Protestant concern in a nutshell.
Bill, your fine questions are prodding me (gently and in love) to respond via a post so I'll reserve the remaining questions for meditation and writing later this week. Thanks for the kind dialogue and as always, for your patience.
Brad
My dear Brad,
It is easy to be patient with you because you are so full of grace and wisdom.
I agree with you here.
I believe there is a distinction among Protestants, with bibliolators on one side, and more mature believers on the other (sorry for the insult everyone!). There are Protestants who realize that there must be a teaching authority within the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, that permits it to speak truth with authority. If the Church says X, it surely will not say -X if X is also in Scripture.
I wonder if this makes sense? What if the Bible were suddenly proven, I mean, really proven, to be wrong in a variety of key areas? Would we stop believing in Christ? What if archeologists found a tomb in Jerusalem; in it there is a man, dead from injuries consistent with crucifixion, in burial cloths, and a sign beneath his head in three languages, saying "Jesus, king of the Jews." Would we stop believing? Why? Have we not all said that we have met the Risen Lord; is He not risen indeed? Or is His resurrection -- and our belief in it -- SOLELY contingent on Scripture being true? Does not Sola Scriptura demand that we have no faith in anything about Christ other than the written Word? If so, why would the Apostles' faith experience be so different, for they did not first believe in a New Testament's authority before proclaiming a risen Lord, did they?
Again, I am searching here. And I love this search. I believe that there is inherently something wrong with treating the Bible as a weapon to be used to bludgeon those who ask serious questions not about the nature of Scripture, but its position relative to our actual experience with Christ and Christian authority. I am one of those believers that is nearly convinced that Scripture and the Church, together, constitute the authoritative witness; my less generous friends at Pyromaniacs, for instance, not only maintain a Scripture alone conviction, they warn against people like me. Which is curious, since they act as a Church bearing witness to error without just pointing to Scripture. I mean, if it is really true that Scripture is "IT", why have commentaries, creeds, apologies, debates, interpretations, hermenuetics, etc.? Why not just let Scripture speak for itself? Why not just cite a verse or ten or a hundred that plainly states that people like me are wrong?
Peace.
BG
Hilarius,
I have not forgotten you. Your points are trenchant, helpful, full of grace. Thank you. There is not much more for me to say; your point is my point, though I think you have made the point better than I.
Peace,
Bill Gnade
BG -
Thank you for the kind words, although if I've said anything worth, as the Psalmist says 'Let God be magnified!'
w/respect to Brad's comment, I think there is an important distinction to be made between the use of the term 'scripture' as it relates to the OT (and even here more likely the early Church would have been thinking of the Septuagint) as opposed to the NT with regard to the early Church.
It is reasonably verifiable from the historical records of the Church that the canon of the NT was in flux in some significant respects even as late as the mid-300s. Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, in his History of the Church (c. 334) recounts that there was still dispute over the canonicity of 2 Peter, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation as well as 2 and 3 John and Revelation. Eusebius noted that the criterion was what was consistently read and taught publicly in the Churches as a whole [and interestingly he notes that some Churches read and thought the Shepherd of Hermas good for elementary instruction]. Thus, the criterion is the tradition of the Church.
We see even as the canon starts to become more consistenly voiced by the Church later in the century that while these disputed books are generally coming within the consensus of the Church (see, e.g., St. Athanasius of Alexandria's Festal Letter c. 367 and St. Cyril of Jerusalem's catechetical lecture on the 10 Points of Doctrine c. 348) Revelation generally is not publically read in the Church (something the Eastern Orthodox still do not do . . . although it infuses the liturgy).
So we are left with an interesting problem . . . Christians are Christians without fully having authoritative resort to the important teachings of Hebrews, of James, of 2 Peter, of Jude, and of 2 and 3 John, and of Revelation until at least the mid-300s. Moreover, they have additional books not contained in the Masoretic Text which the reformers decided to canonize.
If I were to rip out these books and start over, how would 'my' version of Christianity hold up? How did these people come to be guided in all Truth without these books being demarcated for them during the 100s, during the 200s? If they went wayward in this time, what happened to the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church? Who or what is the 'pillar and ground' of the Truth?
This is why, in my opinion, there is no principled means to separate out the canon of the NT from the faith of those who brought it to us; and this faith has a particular view of the role of tradition, of creed, of eucharist, of baptism, of polity and of ecclesiology. To accept the canon of the NT as authoritative but to throw out the beliefs of those who handed it down (the Spirit was moving to inspire the adoption of the canon but nothing else in the Church?) I found to be untenable in the end.
This required me to ask myself some hard questions about the meaning of scripture, particularly about the Lord's Supper and about the nature of the Church. The consistent witness from the apostles and our Lord down through the period of the close of the NT canon and onward many centuries was simply (1) consistent with the plain language of the Gospels and (2) completely over against what my own 'sola scriptura' Protestant 'restoration' tradition taught.
These were hard issues for me . . . and I don't expect anyone coming from a similar Protestant place to be able to easily address them. We are fortunate to live at a moment when so much of the historical records are readily available electronically and people can check it out for themselves.
- Pax
Well, then, Hilarius, permit me to once again say "Let God be magnified!"
Peace.
BG
Good perspective. This is a process that I think all Evangelical converts to Catholicism go through. An honest assessment of Christian history puts the Sola Scriptura advocate on notice. The burden of proof is on the Protestant to explain why the canonized NT is somehow above the scrutiny of Church history. BTW, I am in New Hampshire. Good State...love it here.
Dear Cramdon,
Forgive the belated reply. How did I miss you?
Thanks for stopping in and introducing yourself. I am grateful for your thoughtful words, and I hope you will opine here again.
Peace,
BG
hi I have greatly enjoyed reading your post !!! two thumbs up!!
"Christians have more than just Scripture to guide them" - for example, they have the Holy Spirit! You are right on!
Dear Mithrandir,
I am indeed glad you found this neglected post worthy. Thanks for the comments; please come back and share yourself some more.
Peace,
BG
Post a Comment